Welcome back to the Warbreaker reread! Last week, Vivenna acknowledged a few hard truths about herself and her motivations. This week, Lightsong muses, Siri worries, Blushweaver threatens, Bluefingers prevaricates, and Vivenna escapes—twice. Quite the party up in here!
This reread will contain spoilers for all of Warbreaker and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. This is particularly likely to include Words of Radiance, due to certain crossover characters. The index for this reread can be found here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 34
Point of View: Lightsong, Siri
Setting: The God King’s Palace
Timing: Immediately following chapter 32; Lightsong notes that it is “a couple of months” after Siri’s arrival in T’Telir (It’s probably longer than that, but not by a lot.)
Take a Deep Breath
Lightsong watches Siri leave, slightly confused by her reaction to the idea of the God King dying, but his attention soon turns to the war debate, and he considers the probability that he will not be irrelevant much longer. Blushweaver interrupts his musing, and they review their position and theology until she realizes that he’s watching Siri watch the debate; he changes the subject by asking about the tunnel complex.
Siri watches the debate; torn between discouragement over the seeming inevitability of war, and excitement over being in the middle of the politics. She’s surprised by mention of an Idrian agent in the city, but dismisses the rumor that the agent is a princess of the royal family. She thinks about her sisters, realizing that Vivenna would have been a terrible fit for the job of wife-to-the-God-King. Blushweaver interrupts her musing (she has a habit of doing that) and warns Siri to leave “my Lightsong” alone.
Siri returns to the palace for her bath and a few minutes relaxation; her floating reverie is interrupted by Bluefingers, who has chosen this decidedly inopportune moment as the only time he can possibly speak with the queen. She asks what happens when a new God King takes the throne, pretending to understand most of his vague comments; he in turn pretends to be terribly nervous about his own situation and that of his people in the palace. He uses the opportunity to again mention the untrustworthiness of the priests, but is shocked when she reveals that she has actually been communicating with Susebron. They make an agreement: he will support Siri’s attempt to protect Susebron, and if it works she will make certain his people are protected. In exchange, he promises to get Siri and Susebron out of the palace if things go pear-shaped.
Breathtaking
“Allmother controls the last group of Lifeless,” Blushweaver said.
“An odd choice, don’t you think?” Lightsong said. “I mean, I am a logical choice—assuming you don’t know me, of course—since I’m supposedly bold. Hopefinder represents justice, a nice mix with soldiers. Even Mercystar, who represents benevolence, makes a kind of sense for one who controls soldiers. But Allmother? Goddess of matrons and families? Giving her ten thousand Lifeless is enough to make even me consider my drunk-monkey theory.”
Didn’t I just ask this question a few weeks ago? Yes. Yes, I did. Chapter 30. Hopefinder (god of innocence and beauty) is at least called “Hopefinder the Just,” so okay-ish. But … yeah, that drunk-monkey theory is starting to sound more probable every time I think about this!
Local Color
Fascinating details in the annotations for this chapter! First, Sanderson addresses the trope-reversal he was aiming for: since so much of fantasy is about overthrowing a corrupt government, he thought it would be fun to try a book where the protagonists were trying to stop a war and stabilize the existing government instead. The name Warbreaker was part of that, even though at the time he didn’t have characters or plots worked out.
The second is an aspect that I’ll address more below: the way Siri is excited by the challenges of her situation, contrasted with how Vivenna is constantly frustrated with hers. So, see below. Third, yes, Blushweaver is jealous because, yes, she’s actually in love with Lightsong.
In the Spoilers section, Sanderson unmasks Bluefingers’s duplicity: He leaked the information that got Vahr captured before that little rebellion could disrupt bigger plans. He lets Siri think he doesn’t know Susebron is mute, and pretends to be worried about the Pahn Kahl servants. He carefully drives another wedge of mistrust between Siri and the priests. Finally, he feigns reluctance but is actually overjoyed with Siri’s request to help her and Susebron get out of the palace.
Chapter 35
Point of View: Vivenna
Setting: A dark room in the slums; the streets of T’Telir; the safe house
Timing: Almost immediately following Chapter 33 (later that night and into dawn)
Take a Deep Breath
Vivenna finds herself bound and gagged in a dark room, but not alone. After a few threats, Vasher cuts her bonds and drops his black sword on the floor in front of her, demanding that she pick it up. Fighting a terrible, strange nausea, she forces herself to comply; a voice speaks in her head, and she drops the sword to empty her stomach of its meager contents. Vasher seems surprised, but picks up the sword and locks it away. He replaces her gag, ties her hands to a doorknob, tells her that if she runs he’ll find her and kill her, and then leaves.
Once her mind starts working, she recalls an old lesson on the subject of kidnapping: her responsibility is to escape as quickly as possible. To that end, she struggles with the ropes, but she’s tied too tightly; to her surprise, she manages to work her gag loose. After a couple of futile attempts to Awaken the rope, she lets her unconscious mind make use of the senses acquired with all that Breath—a bit like changing her hair color, which comes so naturally. To her amazement and relief, it works, and the rope drops from her wrists. She quickly unties her ankles and heads out into the night, bringing the rope with her.
Her first instinct is to get out of the slum and as far away from Vasher’s lair as possible. In the growing early light, she finally recognizes a statue which Denth once used as a landmark when giving directions. Working backward, she finally locates the safe house, where she lights a lantern and heads for the cellar to hide. Once down there, she finds Parlin bound to a chair… dead. Startled by Tonk Fah, she looks around and registers the objects on the walls as Tonks’s pets, tortured to death and hung up like trophies.
As she turns to flee, Denth, Jewels, and Clod come down the stairs; she realizes that they’ve been lying to her all along—that she really was kidnapped the day she arrived in T’Telir, that Lemex couldn’t have died of an illness, and that all their seeming “mercenary humor” was instead brutal truth. Now they’ve tortured Parlin to death because they think she ran away; furthermore, she discovers that her father had indeed sent people to find her, but Denth and Tonk Fah had intercepted and murdered them all.
Now she has to escape again, but Denth stops her attempt to Awaken Tonk Fah’s cloak. Although he finally notices the wounds on her wrists and realizes that she had been kidnapped rather than running away, he won’t risk her using her Breath, and demands it from her. Instead, Vivenna uses the security phrase she overheard earlier to Command Clod to attack Denth. In the confusion, she races up the stairs and throws the latch to slow them down, then runs for her life.
Breathtaking
Denth grimaced, then twisted her arm, causing her to yelp. “All right. It looks like my hand has been forced. Let’s deal with that Breath of yours first, and then we can have a chat—nicely, like friends—about what has happened to you.”
Clod stepped up beside Denth, grey eyes staring forward, empty as always. Except… could she see something in them? Was she imagining it? Her emotions were so strained lately that she really couldn’t trust her perceptions. Clod seemed to meet her eyes.
“Now,” Denth said, face growing harder. “Repeat after me. My Life to yours. My Breath become yours.”
Vivenna looked up at him, meeting his eyes. “Howl of the sun,” she whispered.
Denth frowned. “What?”
“Attack Denth. Howl of the sun.”
“I—” Denth began. At that moment, Clod’s fist hit his face.
That has to be one of the most satisfying sentences in the whole book, right there. I hope it at least broke his nose, even if he healed it right away.
Also, one could get the notion that the Lifeless aren’t quite as lifeless as everyone thinks, and that just maybe Arsteel is less than thrilled with stirring up war and threatening princesses. (See also, Don’t Hold Your Breath)
Local Color
The annotations for this chapter are extensive. You should read them.
The first one is really about what Vasher calls “the Nightblood test”—give someone the sword and see if they throw up or start trying to kill people. As he notes, this isn’t exactly a straightforward proposition. The second is about all things Vivenna, much of which I want to talk about below. She has appeared to be weaker than Siri in many ways—but at the same time, she’s had to deal with harder stuff. Now she’s getting the last of her support destroyed, which will play into her character arc. Third is a brief explanation of Vivenna finding the safe house and the authorial sleight-of-hand that makes it feel like less of a coincidence than it should. Clever authors.
The fourth note addresses the major gamble of the novel: the sympathetic mercenaries turn out to be actual bad (horrible) guys. Did he signal it well enough that it’s believable, while not making it so obvious that there’s no twist? He summarizes the hints that were dropped along the way—things that should convince us it’s true, even while we’re (supposed to be) blindsided by it. (And yes, I’m pretty sure I fell into his trap!)
Finally, Parlin. Poor Parlin – his whole purpose in the novel was to die here. However, Sanderson notes that Parlin is the one thing he’d like to go back and change, giving him more depth and sympathy so that his death would be more powerful to the reader, while not creating a distraction from more critical aspects. There’s also a brief summary here of what the mercenaries were up to while Vivenna was gone, and a little more on the Idrian corpses.
Snow White and Rose Red
Well. Our princesses are poles apart now, aren’t they? Siri, despite indications of impending danger and the war debate, is generally enjoying her life and is in the process of growing to truly fit her role. Vivenna, despite her reputation of always being in control, is now almost as down-and-out as it gets.
As noted above, this is an odd but revealing scene with Siri. She’s truly upset by what she learned from Hoid and Lightsong about the former God Kings all dying shortly after their heir was born. And the idea of Hallandren attacking her homeland is indeed disturbing, because her people are bound to suffer greatly. At the same time, she finds that she’s excited by being in the middle of the politics, in a position to perhaps influence events. She doesn’t even have to go out of her way to create problems: they’re mostly unavoidable! But she does feel just a little guilty about enjoying it. The reflections brought on by the rumored “Idrian princess in the city” are along the lines we’ve discussed before:
Vivenna’s stoic coldness would never have coaxed Susebron out of his imperial mask. Vivenna’s obvious disapproval would have alienated her from gods like Lightsong. Vivenna would have hated wearing the beautiful dresses and would never have appreciated the colors and variety in the city. Siri might not have been ideal for the position, but she was slowly coming to realize that Vivenna hadn’t been a good choice either.
Sanderson mentions that Siri’s enjoyment of the challenges is a more mature version of her childhood tendency to cause trouble just for the excitement, which makes sense. It seems to me that her ability to see this in herself, as well as her realization of the difficulties Vivenna would have had as queen, are also signs of maturation.
It’s worth noting here that despite her challenges, Siri is in a pretty good place. Aside from the creature comforts, she has a husband she’s growing to love, trust and respect. She has a friend in Lightsong, who has already gone out of his way (uncharacteristic, in this Court!) to help her. She has information, most of it fairly reliable, about the framework of her situation. Of course, she also has a confidant who is as duplicitous as they come, but she doesn’t know about that part yet. All in all, she’s got some reason to be hopeful.
Vivenna, at roughly the same time frame, is getting every last bit of support knocked out from under her. Kidnapped by Vasher, who appears to be an eyelash away from killing her out of hand, she escapes and finds her way to the safe house, only to discover that her trusted “allies/employees” have murdered her only friend. Not only that, they’ve also intercepted and murdered every person her father sent to find her. (According to the annotations, the count has reached several dozen by now.) She escapes again with nothing but the clothes she’s wearing and a very empty stomach, and now she’s hiding from both Vasher and Denth, either of whom is likely to kill her—possibly after torturing her for her Breath.
Things are not looking good, but there are several positives to note. One, this may be the first time her lessons were actually useful:
There are things to do if you are kidnapped, one had taught. Things that every princess should know. During her time in T’Telir, she’d begun to feel that her lessons were useless. Now she was surprised to find herself remembering sessions that related directly to her situation.
If a person kidnaps you, the tutor had taught, your best time to escape is near the beginning, when you are still strong. They will starve you and beat you so that soon you will be too weak to flee. Do not expect to be rescued, though friends will undoubtedly be working to help you. Never expect to be redeemed for a ransom. Most kidnappings end in death.
The best thing you can do for your country is try to escape. If you don’t succeed, then perhaps the captor will kill you. That is preferable to what you might have to endure as a captive. Plus, if you die, the kidnappers will no longer have a hostage.
Brutal, but useful. Because of this, she finds the courage to defy Vasher’s threats, and make a way to escape. And because of it, she finds a way past the shock of Parlin’s death and Denth’s betrayal to escape again before she can be used to further his purposes any more.
A second positive effect is that her desperation to escape leads her to recall everything she knew about Awakening, including that the amount of Breath she held would make it easier to Awaken instinctively. That in turn leads her to relax the conscious control she’s been trying, and let her enhanced senses simply do their thing. It works.
The third, which I may love a little too much, is that she stays calm enough under pressure to remember the security phrase Jewels muttered the previous day as well as how she used it to control Clod. That was… unexpected, as was Clod’s apparent desire to be of service.
Vivenna is most definitely not in a happy place, and it’s going to get worse. But there are hopeful signs already, even if she—and the first-time reader—may not recognize their importance.
As I Live and Breathe
So Vivenna pulls off a couple of attempts at Awakening. Sort of. The first one seems almost haphazard, but she successfully draws color from the wall and sends Breath to the rope to make it untie itself. The second one is a heart-breaker: she manages to draw color from her dress and pass Breath into Tonks’s cloak, but she’s too slow—or Denth is too fast. I could have screamed when he kept her from speaking!
(Question: Do we know if there’s a time limit on giving an object a Command after giving it Breath? It seems like Denth just needs to prevent her from speaking for a few seconds, and the Breath is wasted. She could presumably get it back if she knew how, but Denth doesn’t seem concerned that she’ll be able to finish the job.)
The other bummer in this is that some of her Breath is now stuck in Tonk Fah’s cloak, where she’ll likely never have a chance to get it back.
Clashing Colors
The Pahn Kahl continue to hide in plain sight. Bluefingers is lying through his teeth with every other word, but he speaks the truth when he insists that her bath—where she’s served solely by Pahn Kahl women—is the only place he can be assured of not being overheard by those who are dangerous to him. What I’m wondering now is whether the Pahn Kahl actually are considered “second-class servants” by the Hallandren, or whether he’s exaggerating. Or both: whether they have made themselves into a separate group so deliberately that the division between Hallandren and Pahn Kahl is an artificial construct of the Pahn Kahl themselves.
In Living Color
Lightsong, Blushweaver, Vasher, and Denth all do their bit in this chapter, but there’s really not a lot that’s new about the first three. Unless you want to count Blushweaver getting all snitty at Siri for her supposed attempt to seduce Lightsong, which is really funny when you know Siri’s side.
Denth, though… well, I guess he proves today what he said earlier—that he hasn’t been a good man for some years now. He’s spent this whole time covering up Tonk Fah’s sociopathic nature by making it sound like they were just joking. Now that the truth is out, he’s ruthless—and he still tries to pretend that he’s funny. I really hope we get that sequel someday. I want to know when and why he turned into such a rotten toad.
Don’t Hold Your Breath (Give it to me!)
Nightblood. Talks to Vivenna and scares the living daylights out of her—or would, if she weren’t too busy retching up everything down to her toenails. Y’all really should read the annotation about the Nightblood Test—it’s a bit convoluted, and involves Nightblood’s reliance on the morality of the person holding him, since he’s got none of his own. But it works, and Vasher is surprised occasionally by someone like Vivenna who totally can’t touch the sword without heaving everything available.
Far more interesting to me, today anyway, is the situation with Clod. As I mentioned above, Clod seems to have more humanity than Lifeless are expected to retain. Whether this is because he was a Returned before they made him a Lifeless, or because Lifeless aren’t quite so lifeless as they’re assumed to be… well, I’d like to know.
I did have to go and scrounge out what little we know about Arsteel. I had assumed that he was on Denth’s side, having joined his little mercenary band, but that seems not to be the case. From what I learned (searching through the annotations, mostly), Arsteel was by nature a peacemaker. The conflict between Denth and Vasher bothered him, and he joined Denth’s group in search of an opportunity to resolve that conflict and reforged their friendship. He’d had no intention of killing Vasher in that duel—he’d figured to just disarm him (maybe after a little humiliation) and then explain all the things. But Vasher didn’t know that, and he went into the duel to win. Which he did.
They made Arsteel into the Lifeless Clod, partly just to see if it could be done with a Returned, and partly because if it worked, he should be a really skilled Lifeless. Obviously it could be done, and equally obviously, he is an insanely skilled Lifeless. But it seems to me also obvious that Clod/Arsteel is, for some unfathomable reason, determined to protect Vivenna whenever possible. And I’d really, really like to know why.
Exhale
I hadn’t thought about it before reading the annotations, but in a way I’m glad Parlin wasn’t more “real” to me. (That last conversation he had with Vivenna, where he pointed out that the idea of them marrying was never more than a pretense, was one of his few “real” moments. That, and his big-brother-style fondness for little Siri…) I agree that his death would have hurt more if I’d gotten attached to him as a person. On the other hand, we see this moment like we’ve always seen Parlin: through Vivenna’s eyes, and through the impact it had on her.
Which is better? I don’t know. Maybe I’m just a wimp, but I’ll admit that I don’t mind seeing his death more in terms of its effect on Vivenna, instead of feeling like my best buddy was murdered…
Well, okay. That’s a super-long blog. Sorry about that. I guess that’s what happens when I try to pick up the chapter pace just as the plot pace picks up too! Anyway, chime in on the comments, and join us again next week, when we will cover chapters 36 and 37, in which Siri flirts and picnics with her husband, while Vivenna crawls closer to rock bottom.
Alice Arneson is a SAHM, blogger, beta reader, and literature fan. If you Facebook, you can join her in the Tor-Sanderson-rereader-specific group known as the Storm Cellar; since it’s a closed group, you have to ask to join. Identify yourself as a Tor friend, and one of the moderators will add you. Also, for those keeping tabs, the Oathbringer progress bar is now at 68%, and rumor has it that the beta read was an extremely successful venture. Woot!
“But it seems to me also obvious that Clod/Arsteel is, for some unfathomable reason, determined to protect Vivenna whenever possible. And I’d really, reallylike to know why.”
Could Arsteel be the great,great-grandfather of Vivenna? Supposedly, the royal line has Returned heritage. I don’t remember if it was ever said who they are descended from.
I’d really like to know more about the rules governing magic here, too. Someone put me in cryostasis and wake me when the Cosmere is done.
I could be misremembering, but I’m fairly certain that Breath getting stuck in Tonk Fah’s coat comes into play later on in the story, in a distinctly non-bummer fashion. I remember Vivenna was fighting and trapped, and was able to get the Breath back and use it for things. It definitely would have been disheartening in the moment, which, now that I think about it, might have been what you were intending, but in the long run, it actually worked out well.
Giving the Allmother, goddess of matrons and families, an army makes a convoluted sense to me, in that, I think women, especially those who have children, would be less likely to want war. So perhaps Allmother would be a quelling influence on the hotheads. But then, this is my first read….
Count me in the camp of people who didn’t see the betrayal coming. And I don’t think Brandon has to worry. As soon as it happened, I connected the dots and saw how it was set up and how I missed it. It was nicely foreshadowed and didn’t come out of left field.
And the Clue-by-four has landed! Yay! Ironically enough, this was my favorite bit of Vivenna’s storyline to that point (not of the whole book, Lightsong had thoroughly stolen the show by then) because it pointed out to her, without a doubt, that everything she thought she knew was wrong. And once that happened, the healing could begin.
The betrayal was a surprise to me too, but maybe because I’m like Vivenna a little naive plus trusting personality.
Definitely something up with Clod/ Arsteel. Don’t know if it’s just him or maybe all lifeless retain some humanity? Didn’t realize that Arsteel wasnt planning on killing Vasher in their duel….makes his death extremely sad. Arsteel must have been very confident that he could win against Vasher and he would have except for Vashers smart trick.
Definitely enjoying this reread, thank you Alice! I don’t have much to add, it seems like you’ve got it all covered. I had commented earlier about how I felt that Parlin was “unfinished” as a character from my perspective, and from the annotations it appears that Brandon felt the same way.
@2 – I love the thought that Arsteel may be a great-great-great grandfather of Siri and Vivenna. There is definitely some backstory that we don’t get in this book and it would be nice to see that sequel on Brandon’s worklist.
I was blindsided by Denth being an evil person. Not so much by Tonk Fah and Jewels didn’t really register one way or the other. In any group of mercenaries there will be a mix of evil and possibly some honor but I had bought into Denth’s humor. My mind doesn’t associate humor with evil.
Clod was definitely making it seem that lifeless didn’t lose everything that makes a person human, but we have no other lifeless to really compare. The city guards would likely have acted the same alive as lifeless. The entire idea is horrible regardless. Using the lifeless to kill the living in a war makes war seem inevitable. What does the aggressor have to lose?
Per the annotations, the Lifeless are kept in a dark vault, which “is a really, Really Bad idea”
That leads me to suspect they retain a shred or more of their cognitive selves (hence the skills transferring), and a person forced to stand still in darkness for days, weeks, months on end is….yeah. Nightmare fuel stuff.
Clod/Arsteel may not be directly related to Vivenna, but her being part-Returned may make him more responsive to her. Or it could just be his not being a murderous psycho in life and wanting to protect her from the other murderous psychos.
Edit: Sorry, double post.
“I’m not sure why, honestly, but this discussion of Blushweaver trying to prove that God exists through the use of her breasts is one of my favorite in the book.” Heh.
Yes, Siri can do everything better than Vivenna, and enjoy it more, and that’s partly because she has had all the good luck. I noticed. And Brandon says it’s because Vivenna’s character development requires more suffering. I still don’t like it.
Sigh. I’ve gotten too accustomed to books where Bad Things happen to everyone and/or the people readers generally root for. I’m not used to seeing a story’s designated punching bag be so disliked by readers.
FWIW, the (original) Returned blood in the Idrian royal family is from Vo, the first (known) Returned, who only lived a week after his Return, but apparently the child his wife bore nine months later was the first with the Royal Locks. Whether there were other Returned along the line anywhere who also had children is unknown.
It does make me wonder, though… at the end of the book, we see Denth’s hair color changing just before he dies. Is that because he’s also descended from Vo, or is this a possibility when any Returned has a child? I think Brandon left it a bit of a mystery.
I thought Denth’s hair color changed right before he died because he was returning to his original features – Brandon noted in his annotations that the returned at the court could be almost anything but they unconsciously chose features that matched how they thought they should look. This makes me think that returned children have the hair changing ability (and possibly more) because the returned themselves have it.
What bothered me about Denth and the mercenaries is that their motivation is so weak for starting a war. In this chapter, they are still insisting that they are just doing what they are paid for, when there is a feeling there should be more to them. Then we find out about getting revenge on Vasher, but that too seems weak and convoluted: let’s start a war so we can get Vasher to show up to stop us and we can kill him … Really?
Even the motivation of Bluefingers and the rest of his followers seems very weak to me: these servants are really evil people who are going to murder hundreds of people and start a war that will kill thousands all on the chance that in the chaos they can somehow take power.
And don’t get me started on the motivations of the Priests with the convolutions of Siri’s impossible pregnancy that is used to exert power over each other. And the entire treaty a lie, since the next God king will not be the Princess’s child, and through the marriage the Princess will learn the truth. The treaty made no sense.
I really liked all the main protagonists in Warbreaker, loved the magic, and was cool with the character growth. But the motivations of the “villains” did not make sense to me and it left the story unsatisfying to me. I do not know of another Sanderson story that has this same flaw, he is usually excellent at bring in believable twists and secrets.
@15 – Bluefingers is not seeking to take power. He wishes to free his Pahn Kahl from underneath the boot of Hallandren.
The Breathtaking quote about who gets the lifeless commands makes sense if you think of Brandon the person and not Brandon the author.
Brandon Sanderson is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter–Day Saints aka a Mormon, and in their scripture, The Book of Mormon, there is a line about one of the reasons to fight; which is to protect families.
From The Book of Mormon Alma 46:12
“And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.”
Denth does have the Royal locks outside of also being a Returned: Theoryland WoB
I have also wondered why/how Arsteel/Clod always manages to be Viv’s savior every time she really needs one. Even if she does have to command him, he really rushes to hit Denth and hits him hard.
I wasn’t totally blindsided on the mercenary betrayal, but I didn’t fully see it coming either. They always seemed odd or too subservient. No true merc who says they stopped being a good person a long time ago would have stuck around. They would have taken the money, kidnapped or sold Viv and made off with their gains… unless they were up to something else. I just had no idea what that “else” was. Were they working for her father secretly? I did not see them working for the Pahl Khan or to have history with Vasher.
@15 adjbaker
Denth and his colleagues have an excellent reason for starting a war; they’re being paid to do it. That’s all the reason any mercenary needs. Killing Vasher is a bonus for Denth, but he’d be happy to kick off a war even if his old friend wasn’t involved at all. Whatever else he lies about, Denth is never actually lying about being a mercenary. He just wasn’t working for Vivenna.
Bluefingers is seeking to kick off a war so that the Pahn Kahl people can free themselves from Hallendran while the Empire is distracted. It’s like a Polish nationalist trying to start WWI so that Russia and Germany will both collapse.
@16 Austin
Bluefingers’s goal is entirely righteous. His methods are not, but I don’t even know if he qualifies as the “bad guy”. Hallendran is occupying his people against their will, and there’s no reason for them to submit to a foreign theocracy.
@18 Studynot
Though mercenaries are not noted for their ethics, some mercenaries might be willing to strictly adhere to the terms of their contract. If you’re looking for well-paying jobs down the road, you really don’t want a reputation for robbing and murdering your employers. There are plenty of evil people who believe in keeping their professional commitments in real life, and I see no reason why fictional universes can’t have amoral people who do the job they’re paid to do.
This is where I experienced the biggest reversal of roles I’ve ever seen in a book. This is the book where all the good guys, Denth and his mercenaries, Bluefingers and his clerks and palace servants, turned out to be the bad guys, and all the bad guys, Vasher, the priests, turned out to be the good guys. And I admit I missed every single clue.
I also read a lot of mysteries, the classical Agatha Christie types where the murder is more a puzzle to be solved than a hard-boiled shoot-’em-up, and I considered myself pretty sensitive to picking up on clues in the tone and inflection and mannerisms and logical inconsistencies to help spot the murderer before the end, but in this case Brandon quite pulled the wool over my eyes before the big reveals. Perhaps I wasn’t expecting that kind of trick in a fantasy novel, but I thought it was quite masterful the way Brandon turned that switcheroo. This is one of my favourite Brandon books as a result.
@20 Alisonwonderland
I don’t know if Warbreaker was your first Sanderson book, but the effect is even more powerful if you’ve read his other stuff first. The plot of Warbreaker is like a mirror image of Mistborn, with both books focusing on a gang of criminals fighting against a theocracy ruled by a God-King. Sanderson isn’t just subverting traditional fantasy trops; he’s taking a theme he established in his own writing and turning it on its head.
@20 I feel like this should serve as a warning to all of Sanderson’s readers. He has no problem with his characters being completely wrong. Just because the narrative and the character believe something, it doesn’t mean it has any resemblance to the truth. It’s one of the main ways he screws around genre tropes but it can make for some fairly uncomfortable reading.
@19. dptullos – 16. Austin
The reason I don’t buy the whole, there must be war so that Pahn Kahl people can free themselves from Hallendran, is that we don’t see either the Pahn Kahl or Austre people actively being oppressed. We do see them living as servants or in the slums, but we do not see outright hatred or racism. In fact, Vivenna makes this point later in the book. Vivenna is treated just like any citizen of Hallendran: even being allowed to go into the God’s court. There is nothing about Pahn Kahl people being forced to be slaves or forced to stay in Hallendran.
Denth: he is not a mercenary, he is one of the original Returned that created the magic of Hallendran. He makes the point later, that he does care about being paid – only revenge.
Mistborn’s repeated flipping of this who’s-good-who’s-bad trope is ruddy amazing. The two big opposing forces aren’t what we first think they are, and even after we know more about them it becomes nigh impossible to tell whose strings are being pulled by whom and to what ultimate end. Mistborn underwhelmed me in general, partly because I’d read Stormlight Archive first, but I was very impressed with this aspect of it.
@22 noblehunter
Logically, we should always expect human narrators to make mistakes. They have limited information, and they suffer from normal human biases. It’s usually more satisfying to figure out the truth instead of having it handed to us, and Sanderson certainly makes us work for it.
@23 adjbaker
If America was invaded by a foreign theocracy that seized our land and installed a ruling class of so-called “gods” that none of us actually worshiped, would you be inclined to shrug your shoulders and accept your new place as a subject?
Saying that the Pahn Kahl people are “free” to leave their land and live somewhere else is like saying that Irish people were “free” to abandon their homes after foreigners took over their country. The country that the Hallendran call “Hallendran” belonged to them before the invasion, and the Pahn Kahl rightfully reject the legitimacy of government by foreign gods. Why should they give up their land and independence to live under a God-King they don’t believe in?
Denth is both one of the original Returned and a mercenary. In his final fight with Vasher, we learn that he works as a mercenary to avoid responsibility; the last time he and his fellow Returned tried to change the world, the result was the Manywar.
@25 Maybe I read too much competence porn but Sanderson seems notable for how wrong he makes his protagonists. Almost every decision Vivenna has made since getting to Hallendran up to this point was based on false premises. Siri isn’t really doing much better, though she’s at least right about some things.
@21 dptullos
No, Warbreaker was not my first Sanderson novel, I read War of Kings first, then Elantris and the first four Misborns, before Warbreaker. I didn’t get the same sense of complete role-reversals in Mistborn (for example, Vin and Ellend remained the “good guys” from beginning to end), but your mileage may vary.
Whew!!! Finally caught up. :-) just posting so that this will be in the list of my conversations.
On the topic of mercs they would be happy about a war it’s a good place to make money especially for a small skilled group.
I also think about the mercs from the wot defending andor and how they were willing to be loyal to a point but wouldn’t sell their lives defending a location when they could preserve their troops to fight for someone else or the same person later.
@23 – Pahn Kahl was ruled by a foreign power they didn’t want. Picture America being ruled by the British back in the 1700’s. They don’t have to be slaves to resent being ruled by a foreign power.
In earlier chapters Clod has orders to protect Vivenna, isn’t it possible he comes to her because nobody thought to remove those commands?
@31. Good point about Clod.
@23 adjbaker
The reason I don’t buy the whole, there must be war so that Pahn Kahl people can free themselves from Hallendran, is that we don’t see either the Pahn Kahl or Austre people actively being oppressed. We do see them living as servants or in the slums, but we do not see outright hatred or racism.
If one religious/ethnic/etc. group disproportionately lives in slums, or is stuck doing low-wage, low-status work, that’s one way that they’re being oppressed; they’re stuck in crappy conditions. That economic inequality is kinda how racism and other “isms” work on a structural or society-wide level.
@33 By that same token they seem entrenched enough in society that it seems that something like civil disobedience, boycotting, strikes, etc. could be just as effective without the violence
@34 BenW
Bluefingers isn’t a cackling villain, and he doesn’t enjoy killing people. If there was a nonviolent way to resolve the problem of his people’s occupation, he would prefer that approach to starting a war.
@34 Non-violent resistance assumes the oppressor has either a moral objection to violence or a reason to pretend that they do. If they have can crack skulls without compunction, it’s just getting your people beat up for no reason.
@36 Given that a violent uprising just occurred yet there hasn’t been any evidence if a followup crackdown, it seems to imply that it COULD work, but that the Pahn Kahl just haven’t tried it.
On the other hand for all we know it is a foreign concept in their world
@37 BenW
Our viewpoint is too limited. The Hallendran Empire is a big place, and the revolt didn’t occur in the capital. For all we know, there are smaller Lifeless armies occupying the rebellious provinces as the events of the story go on.
Bluefingers seems genuinely sad about killing Siri and Susebron. He’s not bloodthirsty, and he’s smart enough to look at alternatives. Occam’s Razor suggests that he doesn’t see any other possibilities for freeing his people.
@38 I’ll agree with you on one thing. Our viewpoint is too limited. For all the talk about how the Pahn Kahl are treated we don’t see enough of them to really for our own opinions one way or the other. All we have is what we are told. And as this book has shown us that can be a very limiting source of information. Hopefully the sequel(s) will help clear things up.
In a note that may or may not be related. Often in the real world there are cases where the war is won but the peace is lost. Either overthrowing the corrupt government creating a power vacuum that leads to mass instability, like what my country did to Iraq, or one corrupt government is replaced by another. Is it possible that these types of situations are why Sanderson is saying is Bluefingers methods will do more harm than good?
Sleeper agents, planted deep within the government, poised to strike at an opportune moment.
Convoluted plans, the execution of which is unlikely to result in the precise outcome you’re aiming for.
Political manipulations that count on words to have a precise and predictable effect on individuals.
People who are absolutely convinced of the correctness of their own opinion/morals, and make ridiculous decisions based on those often incorrect assumptions.
These are all common in fiction, if not necessarily in real life. And that’s OK – real life is often boring. I certainly wouldn’t want to read a book that details my life over the last few years. I’d much rather read a story like Warbreaker, regardless of how likely the plot may or may not be.
And incidentally, people IRL sometimes do things that are absolutely bat-#### crazy. Sometimes they simply know or believe different things than us, and sometimes they just form radically different opinions based on the same information. I don’t find it difficult to believe that someone, convinced of his people’s oppression (regardless of the reality of that oppression) but in a position of some influence, could concoct a plan that to me seems unlikely to succeed and do his very best to bring it off.
Possibly unrelated, but I remember when I read Alloy of Law, Bloody Tan’s hideout strongly reminded me of Tonk Fah’s cellar. Add to that Forch (from Bands of Mourning) wanting to ‘find out what is inside’ people, and Balat’s predilictions with animals in the Stormlight books, and I’m not sure if this is just a trope Brandon likes to fall back on for crazy sociopaths, or if there is some connection or overall cause to this kind of madness. Or if not all 4, maybe just some of them are related (the whole time I was reading BoM expected Forch to become relevant again or maybe have it revealed that it’s somehow all related to whatever Trellism is – but – and maybe somebody could clarify – I do recall that in some ways Harmony was responsible for some of what happened with Lessie/Tan etc but I can’t recall if it was implied/stated that he was the one responsible for the specific nature of Tan’s crimes or drove him to do it).
Were it any other author I’d lean more towards ‘trope’ (and I still lean that way fairly strongly) but with Brandon that at least makes me more inclined to think there COULD be some kind of connection.
Lisamarie, I’m now wondering if all these sociopath types are influenced by Odium. He seems to like doing that.
Something interesting I just noticed: A couple of chapters back, Vivenna was talking about how much she hated Hallendren, how she was now willing to do anything to see them destroyed. And yet, despite that, she still passed the Nightblood test. If she’d actually been as hateful as she claimed, she’d have picked up Nightblood and started destroying everything around her until her Breath ran out. She’s a better person than she claims to be, possibly a better person than she wants to be.